Let's Talk: Classes

So yeah, I thought that my question topic was going somewhere interesting, and I thought I would discuss this with everyone, here is what Sirius wrote last:

Sirius Leos wrote:

What you seem to be missing about characters [which may be due to a... certain misinterpretation on your part in regards to roleplaying] Is that they develop. The reason most people chose to start again is not because they wish to do the classes again. It is because if starting a new character they will wish to develop the master-padawan bonding and experience all of the emotions that the character feels as it grows, along with all of the relationships with your class mates... along with other things. To skip out on learning some powers because you 'Don't wish to learn those powers again' Seems somewhat detrimental to the entire concept of us being a Role-play clan. Its like starting a story book halfway through, sure you will still find out how the story ends but you'll be missing a fundamental part of the developing story and perhaps wont be so attached?

Now if this was going to be a carbon copy of another character then... Well that's just a sad use of time and i would much sooner have you role-play your old character than have you role-playing a totally new one with the same history.

Now i haven't meant any of this to be insulting or derogatory however i do feel your missing some of the fundamental concepts of why we role-play.

As for playing roles outside of the jedi, while it does state we allow public characters for a certain period of time, surely there is less fun in changing characters every month as opposed to playing one consistently and watching him grow into something spectacular. As examples of spectacular character growth you can look at Characters here like Sylar, Sevi, Jaina, Nuhallis... All of these people are phenomenal guys and DESPITE everything they enjoy role-playing so much that they have all been willing to start again and HAVE that growth.

In the end its your call, if you still wish to retain your character after this please pm the council group on the forums.

I just feel like you'll be missing out if you try to cut corners like this.

Best wishes.
Topic locked.

My response to that is simple: I won't stop having classes, I will just skip the boring ones. I will have the same character developement and I won't be bored OOCly, so it's win-win.

What do you think? Do you think having to do the classes is good for RP or just tidious?

I would like to hear the opinions of people who still have to take classes.

Personally, I am arguing that mandatory classes are a drag. Not classes in general, but mandatory classes. Like, when people have to take a certain amount of "push" and "pull" classes to be effective in combat even though neither the master nor the student may enjoy having those. I certainly remember having my third "Force Speed" class in old DAJ, because, well, it was mandatory, like here, and it was just boring. I can't remember who held that class, but I don't think they were too excited either, but hey: I wanted to be a useful jedi in combat later, so it had to be done.

And that's a problem I see here too: it HAS to be done. You HAVE to do certain classes to progress, you HAVE to RP this and that. And when RP is semi-forced like that, it's just less fun in my opinion.

But anyway, those are just my thoughts, what do you guys think?

This might be my clan sometimes soon, if the council lets me use Avea (and not deage her to 12), so I am taking more of an interest into clan politics now.

Everytime things seem to end up in a discussion about how things are running over here...
Always questioning the rules.

If you want to join you do so and accept everything that the clan offers you.
Dont start questioning on classes being boring or w.e.

Those who complain most are most to be complained of.

I don't mind being complained to about, it helps me improve myself. If you do have an issue with me, feel very free to tell me all about it.

Please, do not see me as complaining in order to complain. I complain in order to strive for improvement, for how can we improve things we do not question? I figured you would want to hear about what people might not like all that much. Sure, it's unpleasent to be told, that not everyone likes the own decisions or outlooks on the world, but surely you'd want honest feedback, rather than none or fake one?

Also not sure if I am joining yet, since the answer to "Do I have to redo every class?" was kinda vague, Sirius is getting back to me on that one, I think.

Classes dont have to be boring, it just depends on the teacher. Ima be blunt when I say this. If you dont want to RP learning as a young jedi, Why RP a jedi at all?
Nuhallis had just taken his knight trials when i decided to get rid of him. I chose to go with new character and ''do all the boreing stuff again''.
The ''boreing'' stuff is part of a jedi life, just like IRL, sometimes it takes a few dull things to get to the fun stuff. If you want to get started, well then its best to get started now then to keep discussing it.

See, that's where I disagree.

In RP, where we can literally create and control everything, why go through dull stuff? I see it like with a movie: sure there are slower moment, where there's no action, but those moments also have their own charme, if done right and to the viewer's taste, that is.

Like with Avea: I enjoyed greatly to have her discuss ethical believes, the consequences of being "good" or "evil". Now this is pretty close to a philosophy class, but I can't only do philosophy classes (and other, interesting ones), as much as I would like to. If I wanted to some day help on the missions or teach someone myself, I would also have to do.... hold on, let me check that powers list.

Ignoring the physical 'powers':

Take 16 classes in basic force powers, about another 16 classes in lightsaber combat and let's say 8 classes in other stuff, that I am not fond of. That's 40 mandatory classes, a minimum of 20 hours of RP, that somebody has to spend teaching me something I have little interest in, and I would just much rather spend these 20 hours learning something I find more exciting.

Just think of this, if you like mmorpg you have to start from scratch including boring talk, so we can get better and get to more fun activities. However if you start New and skip all the boring stuff it's almost like cheating. However it is down to council and masters to decide if you can bring an old character back. However I understand your frustration but it is natural way of things. Besides classes teach us everything also when we hear it again and again it gives you more of understanding way things are.

That's my opinion. Please don't quote me on anything.

Think of it as school IRL, it's boring but you need to learn everything so you have a chance in this cruel world, noone knows everything when they arrive in school as kids. Look at Avea, she gew up with the sith teachings, and she had to learn something from that Sauros fellow. None of our characters were masters at everything from day 1.

I personally skip certain classes for some reason :
- They bore me to hell and back ( Certain topics that I never grew fond to.)
- My character isn't meant to learn that certain thing that's the classes' topic ( All knowing Jedi is soooo 2013 )
- The class gets so big to the point where you barely understand something.


And no , this was not aimed to anybody , it was simply how I felt. Some classes are really fun if both sides want them to be ( Master-Padawan) for example , Jack used to give some awesome classes that were always different ( mostly ) and always gave you something to do , not just sit and fall asleep .   Most of you already know but my previous character in DAJ was a Knight , It can get abit boring to go through everything that I used to learn and/or teach to others. That's pretty much my two cents , for those ( if any ) that took offense in this , I apologise in advance.

Yes, my character needs to learn it all, but I, as OOC person, already know it. Of course my character has to be taught everything, but why not have it happen off-screen? Again, just like in the movies, I suggest cutting RP down to the interesting parts, whether slow and thoughtful or actionpacked, just as long as it's not dull.

I mean, what's the backdraw of me not writting out how my character learns stuff like force push, and yet acting as if he had? My OOC knowlege wouldn't be altered by the experience, because I have an extensive knowlege of force powers OOCly already.

The other argument, brought up, is that you "have to go through the boring stuff, to get to the interesting", but I must ask: why? What is improved by boring yourself?
Another reference to other media: did you ever feel that a movie or game was improved by absolutely nothing interesting happening in the first half? Usually, the first half IS less action-packed, yes, but it's also at least interesting.

Seems like kind of a pity that every post Alssea makes is seen as some kind of an attack on our clan's way of life...

Anyways, back on topic; I think every class has the potential to be fun, providing that everyone goes into it intending to actually roleplay, rather than just having masters read off of Wookieepedia while the students sit around and wait for a chance to repeat the answers from the same scource.
Basically, everyone needs to allow themselves to get involved - if not immersed in the class, teachers included, if it's going to be a fun experience.

Alssea, if you're not going to listen to what Kain's saying, then, pardon my French, but why the hell are you still here???

You want to join the clan, but you question the rules, you question the way classes are taught, you start drama over these things for no reason whatsoever. We've all, at one (or more) point(s) in our lives, started a new character. You're not going to get your way, Alssea, by constantly complaining about our rules and classes. Hell, if anything, that's going to make everyone hate (or dislike, whichever way you prefer) you.

Look at it this way: You weren't born IRL with the knowledge of everything. As Anar said already, "Think of it as school IRL, it's boring but you need to learn everything so you have a chance in this cruel world, noone knows everything when they arrive in school as kids", and as Angelus said, in an MMORPG, you're not gonna start out as max level with a brand new character (my paraphrasing), you're going to have to stick with going through all the quests (or in this case, classes), in order to achieve what everyone wants: the highest level in the game.

And as Siri said in your application, "If you are not interested in joining I believe you should simply say so and stop the drama". Either you choose to stay and stop the drama, or you leave.

The choice is up to you.

I don't think this is so much an issue about causing drama as it is an issue about us being very solidly rooted in how we do Things...
While most of our rules are perfectly fine, some of them do deserve to be looked at a second time, even if it does lead to us concluding that they really shouldn't be changed after all, which I do think is the case with this one in particular.

Actually, my choice is mostly up to the council at this point, as they are still discussing whether Alssea's experience should be transferable or not.

Meanwhile, I am having this discussion to reach one of the two results:
A. Convice others of my standpoint
B. Be convinced by others of their standpoint.

And I am still not convinced by the "It has to be boring" argument, because of my simple reply: "Why?"

Why does life in the temple have to begin boring? Surely, we don't have to be bored OOCly, just for our characters to learn something? Why not have them learn the boring stuff off-screen? What of value is lost? Doesn't everyone benefit if the classes taught and taught to, are to the liking of everyone involved?

I mean, I get the vague reason behind all this: younger ranks should be unpleasent, so that people are ambitious to reach higher ranks, and to create a standard for RP, but is that really necessary?

We already have a fairly "average day" RP going on, even without classes, so why not make classes optional? That way, everyone can RP what they want and enjoy, within the border of the temple and I think that sounds pretty nice.

The way I see it, is kinda like this:
Imagine being a master. Either you are teaching your student the required classes to become a knight 1-by-1, wanting to get through them quickly or you are teaching them what you feel like and are inspired about.

Does the later sound preferable?
I might just be missing another reason for mandatory classes though, so by all means: keep the discussion going, that's what they're here for.

What I think people are trying to say is, your asking daj to change based on what you, one person wants. Its not going to. The ''boreing mandatory'' stuff is part of daj, and it wont change just to fit to what one person wants.

Side note: Your character's learning experiance is as fun as you yourself make it.

I don't really see how alssea's jedi experience can be transfered to Avea, and to which avea? Explain to me how that makes sense..

I'm sorry if I lost track.

Avea, don't remember her? The corrupt Sith you captured and whom Sylar was slowly guiding towards the lightside of the force?

She basically has already been trained in the force, so it would make sense ICly.


And as I stated: I am not really here to change things, that would just be a pleasent bonus, I am here to discuss things. If you don't enjoy discussing things, you don't have to join me.

I don't understand why are you creating these topics over and over and over again. You claim that you're trying to improve our clan yet you don't want to become our member for some reason. Only things these topics cause is OOC drama and hate targeted at you, which isn't nessesary. If you really want to improve our RPing somehow then try to discuss it with council 1st then just creating these posts with public access that just feels like you're trying to question our decisions at all costs.
I enjoy classes myself and from what I saw most people do enjoy them as well. I don't understand why some people don't like them. Character development is important part of storytelling and it's fun. If you just skip the character development part and show us fully developed char we won't enjoy him as much as we could. Which will be shame, because I really like your characters! I personaly had my best RP moments during classes.

Here's abit of a problem. If you'll get that happening , anyone who'll join this place could easily demand the same things , why? Because someone did and it worked so I sort of understand the decision .

To give this a final reply about all of this being ''boring''.

If its boring it could be a problem caus eof the teacher.
I on the other hand try to let people ''do stuff'' and have some fun during the class.
Yes learning can be boring but it is a part of the whole system and no we wont change it.
Deal with it and stop complaining about it.

Thing is, you complain about our rules before you even experienced any of it.
That sounds really logical....

So my word to you is, experience everything with a clean sheet and if any of it is boring.
Well than i must say congratulations, cause im sure more have experienced this feeling and its part of the whole system.

People like Sylar, Catherine and Nuhallis have been working their butts off to get to the point where they could take their knight trials and it gives a certain satisfaction when they reach the title of knight.

They worked hard and pushed through and succeeded.

Ah, so the point really is to make low ranks unpleasent, so that it feels better when you reach a higher rank? I guess that does make sense, though I personally prefer to have the most fun, the whole way through.

And as I said before to the others: just skipping the basic classes doesn't mean I won't be doing any classes, but I would ask for the classes I want, not the ones I need.

Oh, and I wouldn't say that I have no experience. I experienced the class system in the old DAJ, and I attended and witnessed classes in the new one, whenever I could. And while I have nothing but respect for the teachers who put their all into it, I didn't look forward to having 3 classes on telekinesis and force speed all over again.

Still, Kain's point is a fair one. I guess there is a sense of achievement, if you pushed your way through the unpleasent to something rewarding. I just have enough of that in my real life and feel uncomfortable about having even more expectations and tasks to fulfill in my freetime.

I suppose that mindset might be more suited for temporary characters, which may very well be, why I enjoy them so much.


But either way, if people feel offended by my words, I guess I should stop it here. I will await the councils decision about the transfer and then see what I will do. Feel free to unlock Avea's application in advance, for when I have come to a decision.

If you consider that everything's way too dull for you to learn again ( 'Learning' being a way of speech , we all know Wookipedia all too well) try and mix up things ICly , so you make it more enjoyable for you and/or the rest! I personally enjoy to have my character act completly random and retarded during classes ( sometimes out of them too ) , it's a nice change of phase from all the seriousness , emoness and romance--ness around.

I don't understand the hubbub, Simply for the fact that I was knight, I thought making a new character would be pretty fun honestly, hence why I have a new character, It really shouldn't bother you that much to start from a fresh slate, I do this in other games all the time.

Well, what works for you doesn't necessarily have to work for me, though, Vab. I enjoy new characters, I just don't enjoy having them bound to a class schedule. I mean, I could also play a toddler, who has to learn how to speak in the first place, but there is a reason I'm, and probably eveyone, is skipping that too.

Oh yeah, and a late happy birthday.

There is a certain thing that I wish to put up here. Something is dull when you choose it to be. A simple "dull" task can be made interesting when you actually RP smaller details in it, smaller strugles. Like in real life, some qiute simple and uninteresting tasks seem harder than they should be. Since we're behind the screen and we can basically write anything here, we often do these "simple" tasks perfectly, because we don't really encounter them ourselves. It is not the large and interesting (aka those that you would want) that create the RP environment, but the smaller yet meaningful actions and daily routines.

"Skipping" classes would pretty much be the same as in real life. You skip potential knowledge and experience. What do you do in the mean time? That's a question that has to be thought about. Although time does flow faster in our RP environment, it does not "skip" itself.

Back to the dull classes thing. If we assume that the teacher really can't be bothered and just copy pastes from wookieepedia, you can act that it's dull and that your character doesn't understand. In this way, you pretty much force the teacher to do something. A good teacher will try different ways to teach you it, adding to the RP (as well as your characters struggle to understand what the hell it is that the teacher's trying to teach you). The teacher can't just skip forth, as that would be a huge mistake IRP, giving him or her the title "Crappy teacher." The challenge which resides here, will be acting like your character doesn't understand. Ask questions pretty much about everything. In the end, you'll find yourself learning something as well. The very first part to becoming a Jedi is understanding what the Force is, yet many people have not been able to explain it. They assume it for a given. But when I asked them to elaborate, give examples and gave more questions, it gave them something to think about.

Long story short, the "dull" part is what makes us interact and /think/ for ourselves, but it is up to us to make it come forth. Although this isn't real life, this for sure isn't a movie either.

"Own everything, and you have nothing. Own nothing, and you have everything."